And students to help them bridge their success gap. To live a life of options and not obligations On this platform, we’re soaked to bring you high performers who are not just chasing and attaining success, but redefining it through providing above and beyond service. So first of all, for a really, really quick coaching knowledge nugget of the week, we’re gonna talk about pressure.

You often hear me say, discipline equals freedom. Also dropping reminders that life isn’t happening to us, it’s happening for us. And also to implement neutral thinking when things [00:01:00] get tough. So don’t get caught in the story. Focus on the next play or task. If you’re on point, then you will encounter pressure.

Remember, pressure is a privilege. It means you’re in the game. It means the ball is in your hands when the clock is winding down. Most people run from pressure because it feels heavy. But here’s the truth, squad, that weight isn’t meant to crush you. It’s meant to build you to forward you to take all the training, all the lessons, all the legacy handed down to you and force you to step into your own power.

When you stop seeing pressure as a problem and start seeing as a platform, that’s when you level up. That’s when you turn expectations into execution. That’s when you go from playing small to playing on the varsity squad. So today, as you listen in, remember pressure doesn’t define you. It’s how you respond to it that does use it, own it, turn it into power.

And on the mic today, we’ve got someone who has excelled in pressure. A gentleman that lives at the intersection of leadership, creativity, and grit. My good friend John Neman, the force behind Neman practice management. But before John built what you’ll see. Here today there was the founder, the legend, rose Neman, power [00:02:00] pioneering CEO, mentor and female leader.

Before it was the normal, this is like back in the seventies and eighties squad, so like the woman is an absolute legend. She’s blazing past so her son could walk. Long steps forward. Her legacy, a foundation of resilience, integrity, and vision. And John’s not just Rose’s successor, he’s her Inheritor Builder amplifier.

He learned from one of the greats how to lead with both strength and heart at Neman Practice Management. Or I’ll say Neiman pm John’s taken that DNA strategic management people first culture, bold leadership and infused it with his own brand of creativity and connection. But here’s what makes John A.

Little bit different. He’s not just a leader in the boardroom, he’s also an artist. In music at the piano. Music isn’t just a side hobby for him. It’s a passion that fuels his creativity and the way he connects with people. And to top that off, the dude’s a savage. He’s a Brazilian jiujitsu brown belt who’s probably took me out a few times more than I can really want to talk about.

But that blend of business and sharpness, discipline and artistic soul makes him a rare voice in today’s world. Also, [00:03:00] there’s a little legacy to the neman. PM on the way is John and his beautiful lady Josie, who locally you may have seen, and as a news reporter here in the Palm Beaches, are expecting a baby boy very soon.

So get ready, ’cause today I’m going to get out of John some lessons you can walk into and implement ASAP leadership tools, mindset shifts and stories that will remind you greatness doesn’t come overnight. This build often standing in the shoulder of giants like Rose and carried forward by people like John.

So welcome brother. Wow. It’s been a minute. Yes. You know, sir, I’m so glad that we could get you in here. 

Jon Nierman: Thank you for having me. Yeah, 

Coach Fergie: and we also have on the mic Ms. Rose, we’re gonna probably bring her in here for more of a, a legacy roots building interview here in a few weeks. But if you wanna say hi to everybody out there, rose.

Rose Nierman: Hello everybody. Yeah. So, so 

Coach Fergie: awesome. You have the roses here also, but like, before we kind of dive in, John, if I was to put a piano in front of you right now, what’s the song that you would rip off for? 

Jon Nierman: Oh man. I depends on the mood, but I would say right now, maybe a little, uh, some [00:04:00] jazz. All right, cool. You know, a little morning jazz.

Coach Fergie: Very cool. I like it. Get us a little, get us mellow and kind of fired up a little bit. Yeah. So, you know, your company at, at neman PM is dental, sleep medicine and medical billing made easy for dental practices, right? Yes. So it, it’s not something that you see every day out there. It’s very, it’s very rare.

Uh, every dentist needs it, I’ll tell you that. ’cause I dealt with sleep apnea for 15 years. I needed it bad. So tell us a little bit about what you guys do and you know, how you can serve the dentists out there and level up their practices. 

Jon Nierman: Yeah, so, you know, we help dentists implement sleep apnea treatment and medical billing, which the sleep apnea treatment and the, the appliance therapy is covered under medical insurance, not dental insurance.

Oh wow. And so many people suffer with sleep apnea and snoring. Um, and a lot of it is going undiagnosed. MM. Or untreated, right? You know, maybe you’ve been, uh, diagnosed and maybe you’re prescribed at CP Pap and you’re not wearing it. [00:05:00] So there’s a lot of people that have fallen through the cracks in that treatment.

And dentists, um, can get trained on becoming sleep dentists and doing therapy with oral appliances that keep the, the airway open through these mandibular, right? Airway devices that, uh, protrude the jaw forward. So something you 

Coach Fergie: put in your mouth where you go to bed and it kinda opens up the, the area back there.

Exactly. Because that’s what I would have is I would choke on myself. Right. You know? Yes. I was 315 pounds and it was kind of a fatty. You know, so, you know, when I brought the weight down, the sea of apnea went away, but I was so addicted to the sleep machine. Yeah. Like I couldn’t Oh, it’s great. Couldn’t give it up.

Yeah. The hardest thing I’ve ever Yeah. Had to step away 

Jon Nierman: from CPAP’s. Great. And, um, but some people can’t tolerate that. And what’s happening with sleep apnea is exactly that. You know, your, your airway is collapsing, um, from the tongue falling back or the, the tissues, you’re losing muscle tone. And when you fall asleep.

You’re just not getting air at all. Right? So you, you literally stop [00:06:00] breathing multiple times an hour per night. 

Coach Fergie: Right. 

Jon Nierman: And then that can cause that fight or flight response to kick in to wake yourself up. Right. And that’s happening, you know, 10, 20, 30 times an 

Coach Fergie: hour. I was over 60. I didn’t even fall asleep for a minute.

Jon Nierman: Oh yeah, yeah. So, um, it’s, it can be debilitating and a lot of people just aren’t even aware. How dangerous that can be for, for someone’s health. Right. So what’s really cool on the dentist side is that you see your dentist twice a year. Most people aren’t seeing their, their physician or, or getting tested for sleep apnea, but sleep dentists can screen for sleep apnea while you’re in the dental office getting oh checks.

It’s covered medically and it’s 

Coach Fergie: covered medically versus dentally. ’cause dental just. 

Jon Nierman: Dental insurance stinks. Is, 

Coach Fergie: is it’s, it’s more like a coupon than, than a real insurance plan. Exactly. Get a root canal still pay 900 bucks for, right. Exactly. So, 

Jon Nierman: yeah, so it’s, it’s super accessible through health [00:07:00] insurance too.

When you go to your dentist, if, if they’re trained in sleep apnea, you know, they’ll, they’ll screen for it. They’ll ask you a couple questions about your sleep and how refreshed you feel. They can look at signs and symptoms in your mouth. 

Coach Fergie: Sure. 

Jon Nierman: Um, and check like the scallops tongue. If you have ridges on your tongue, that might mean your, your tongue is, is too big for your mouth.

Right. And it’s blocking your airway at night. 

Coach Fergie: Got you. 

Jon Nierman: So they can look at all these signs and symptoms and then treat you with an oral appliance. That can help prop the airway open at night. 

Coach Fergie: I love that. And squat out there, especially my fellow veterans, you know, because dental’s not offered at the, the va, which stinks.

We’re lobbying hard to make that happen, but you know, because you can go the medical side of it. Mm-hmm. They can get, if it’s not the VA to cover it, but also the, you know, medical, the medical insurance to cover it. Right. 

Jon Nierman: EE, even Medicare. Okay. Wow. Okay. Which is, which is really great because, you know, Medicare, they, they don’t cover dental Right.

Services, but they do cover sleep apnea [00:08:00] appliances. Gotcha. So that makes it super accessible. Love it. And a lot of the sleep apnea population there, there is a increase as you get older. Sure. A propensity for it. 

Coach Fergie: Right. And so you built the, the, the practice mansion on the foundation that, you know, your mother Rose created.

So how do you balance honoring. Like her legacy while carving your own path forward? 

Jon Nierman: Yeah, so we, we do a lot of things. Uh, I, I would say the biggest thing that we do is we’ve written down and created our core values and we take, we take those very seriously. Um, and the core values that we have at our company all stem from what Rose did to initially start the company and have so much success Okay.

Early on. So we’ve kind of bottled up, uh, those, those values and written them down, and then we over communicate them Sure. With the team, and really make decisions based off of those core values. 

Coach Fergie: You have, you have a solid team. I mean, you build a team that’s not just talented, but it’s full of [00:09:00] powerful individual stories from, you know, rose being a trailblazing middle of eight children to Jeremy and his brothers all earning Eagle Scout to Tina being related to legendary mission.

Howe Carmichael and Cory, like knowing that age 15, she wanted to work in medical billing, right? So how do you take all those different backgrounds, right passions and blend them together into one cohesive winning culture? Then. 

Jon Nierman: Yeah, so core values having a very clear mission. What is your guys’ mission? So our mission is to help dentists implement sleep apnea treatment and bill medical insurance for their patients so that more patients can be treated.

Coach Fergie: Wow. And that, that’s just something that’s so rare. And that’s why I had to get you in here. ’cause you and I, he’s one of my kava buddies, right. And we’ve wrapped about it and we’re like, I don’t understand. But then I dug into it and then again it was kinda roses. Brainchild over there and we’re again, we’re gonna not hear from Rose too much today, squad, but I’m definitely gonna bring her on ’cause I want to hear the roots and the legacy [00:10:00] of this.

But what do you think Rose’s, one lesson that you made sure you paid forward to John, that he, that you’ve seen him take and excel with? 

Rose Nierman: I would say again, when he came on, we had core values, but when he came on, he defined them. Okay. He looked at everything that we’ve done, everything that’s made us successful.

And I would, even though we created a software for dentists to be able to do this and build medical for the sleep apnea appliances, uh, John took that to a whole new level, and it’s all about the service. ’cause even though we were a software company, I always said, we’re not a software company. We’re a service company.

We pick up our phones. That’s beautiful. We get back to people. 

Coach Fergie: Service is everything. You know, with whether it’s my coaching clients, it’s like just people that’s even with us. With the people that I bring in here, you have to have a core value of service. Like at Time to Shine today we wanna elevate and influence you to lean into your ultimate [00:11:00] human potential.

Right? And so that’s where you guys want people to like. Find a, an actual solution for them to help with their sleeping and also hit it paid for by the insurance. Right. So the John leadership today demands more than strategy, right? It requires empathy, adaptability. So what’s your philosophy on modern, modern leadership right now?

Jon Nierman: I think leadership there, there’s many facets to it, of course. Um, but it, it all revolves around people, right? And. I think if, if you’re able to build a solid team, um, and create that alignment and clarity in that mission, um, there’s a lot of tools that, that we use to kind of, to, to give us a framework for, uh, making sure that we’re on track with leadership.

It’s open communication. It’s, um. It’s weekly meetings with the leadership team [00:12:00] Sure. To discuss issues and make sure, do they have an input? So our leadership team, everyone that you mentioned Yeah. 

Coach Fergie: Like that, those, that seems like a core four or five people, right? Yes. You know, and 

Jon Nierman: so yeah, our leadership team, we meet every week and those are our department heads.

So, uh, another a great tool that we’ve, we’ve used is to let go of the vine and to delegate and elevate. Our department heads. Right. That’s been one of the, the, the biggest, uh, advantages that, that we’ve had, and it creates so much less stress and it empowers every single person on that team. Wow. And then they do that with their employees down the, down the line.

So they’re delegating and elevating, uh. Everyone in their department. Right. And making sure that everyone does, you know, have input, have a, have a voice. We’re very open when it comes to that, that dialogue and communication. Sure. That’s something that we’ve learned. That’s something I’ve, I’ve taken from [00:13:00] Rose and, and from the many years that, you know, we’ve been in business, um, you know, some of the mistakes that you make is, is not realizing.

That someone might have some, some issues, right? Maybe it gets bottled up because they’re not bringing it to you. Right? And if you let that go too long, then it can explode and you know it, it never ends Well, 

Coach Fergie: love, love it. And squad delegate and elevate. I, I mentally wrote it down. I’m gonna actually write it down and we’re going to explore a little bit more about leadership and.

John’s kind of focus into music as well as soon as we get back from throwing it to my good friend Steve Austin with our sponsor of the show over at Dynamic Mortgage Group. 

Steve Austin: Thanks, Scott. Happy Saturday everyone. This is Steve Austin with the Rise Mortgage Dynamic Team with your mortgage market recap for the week of September 8th.

The good times roll on in the mortgage bond market as things continue to remain in the highest levels we have seen since Q4 2024. With that, we have seen a very solid improvement in interest rates. [00:14:00] This week, mortgage bonds got some of its fuel from a bigger jobless claims number than was expected.

These continue signs of a struggling economy, keep investors moving funds into mortgage bonds, which will keep helping improve mortgage rates next week. All signs are pointing to the Fed, making a cut to the Fed rate on the 17th. With that, we are likely already seeing that priced into mortgage rates now, but it can, of course, always still be market moving after the announcement and of course, during and after Chair Powell’s press conference.

That’s it for this week. Have a great weekend everybody. This is Steve Austin, your branch manager, NMLS 7 6 2 3 2 8. With the RISE mortgage Dynamic team NMLS 1 6 0 4 6 6 3 an equal housing lender. 

Brian Mudd: Are you looking to finance your dream home vacation getaway, or an investment property? The Rise Mortgage Dynamic team and company is here to help.

Steve Austin and his team, they’re expert loan advisors. Combine local knowledge with cutting edge technology to make your financing process efficient and seamless. Whether it’s your first [00:15:00] home or your next investment, trust Steve Austin and the Rise Mortgage Dynamic team and company to guide you every step of the way.

Visit them today and experience the perfect blend of technology and personal touch. Steve Austin’s Rise Mortgage Dynamic team. Your local experts in residential financing, call Steve today at (561) 352-9278. That’s 5 6 1 3 5 2 92 78 5 6 1 3 5 2 92 78 NMLS number 1 6 0 4 6 6 3. 

Coach Fergie: Hey squad, we’re back and thank you, Steve for the mortgage update of the week and we’ll hopefully get some good news with those rates coming down.

We’ll see. So. John, like leadership demands. You, you, you drop that bomb of Delegate and Elevate. And also that you’re not just a software company, you’re a service company. That’s the core values that are built on that. Uh, they’re amazing. Your background kind of weaves together a little bit [00:16:00] of business and creativity.

Right. So do you think your love of the music that you are passionate about kind of, kind of gets brought into. ’cause like my, a couple of the people that I’m blessed to employ, they’re artsy, they’re music people and they keep me straight because I’m that awful. Let’s go. Right. Um, and I might see a little bit of that in row, so, right.

So how does music maybe shape the way you lead and solve problems? 

Jon Nierman: It, it definitely does. I think just having any type of creative outlet is important. Uh, for me it’s, it’s music, it’s piano. And that it activates, you know, certain aspects of the brain that, the right side of the brain. Okay. That can really come in handy when it comes to business.

Um, it’s, you know, for us, we, we have a, a software company, so I’m really focused on user experience, user design, uh, user interface, the flow of it, the flow, right? Yeah. And that’s a, there’s a human element to that. You know, [00:17:00] it’s, there’s, it’s part science. It’s, it’s, it’s part feeling and, uh, you know, getting feedback and, and just, I always ask ourselves, um, just how can we make this even easier?

Right. And a lot of those decisions come from being creative, right. And trying different things. And, um, so you can’t be rigid when it comes to a lot of those, those elements, right? You have to be able to adapt and be flexible and. Think outside the box and 

Coach Fergie: delegate to elevate, like you’re allowing the other players on your team to have input.

Yes. Right. I mean, obviously you guys make the decisions, but the input’s there and it’s valued and that’s just like, I don’t, I’m not. I don’t like the word balance. Like in my life, even the name of my book that’s coming out, harmonic, cuss, right? Like I believe in harmony. Like, like I look at life as a, a jazz band actually.

So where the drums is God or your creator, you know, the guitar might be your family, your business might be the horns and on and down [00:18:00] the line of the pillars of life. If one of ’em outta tune, it’s all goes to poop. Yeah, right. It’s done right. So, but all it takes is just that little tuneup. One of your department heads coming in and tuning up that part.

And then you’re back into harmony. Yes. Right. And I can see you guys doing that in spades, which is fantastic. So many leaders, they focus like real only on growth metrics, which you guys do grow, but you emphasize people and culture. Yes, a hundred percent. Right. So how do you practic practically make that a heartbeat of your company?

It’s a, it just seems like you guys are, for lack of a better term, savages in the business world, right? You guys are nobody else really out there does what you do, right? But like, how do you make that kind of the heartbeat of your company and still excel? 

Jon Nierman: Well, I would say we spend probably 60% of our time focused on the people.

Okay. In internally. Uh, mostly, you know, and, and, um, we have an another saying a lot of this comes from the [00:19:00] EOS system. Mm-hmm. We’ve taken a lot of these tools. The, the entrepreneur operating system. Another tool is the, the right people for the right seats. And there’s a couple metrics to, to decide if, is this the right person for the right seat?

They have to get it. They have to want it, and they have to have the capacity to do it right. And you can do regular evaluations on that and make sure, ’cause sometimes people, when they come in, they, they want it. Maybe a year down the line, they, they don’t want it anymore. And you can see that in their performance.

Right. And, and you know, then you have to reevaluate. Do they need to go in a different role or are they just not the right fit at all? Right, at this point? Or is there something that we can do? But it all comes down to. The right people in the right seats. 

Coach Fergie: Right. And so they got to get it, want it, and the capacity to do it.

Yeah. So when did you feel Rose John was the one that got it, wanted it, but most of all had the capacity to take the [00:20:00] reins? 

Rose Nierman: Well, he was always, even as a kid involved in the business, um, we, as you know, he would do little tasks for me. We would play the, uh, stamp game or the sticker game where he’d put stamps on envelopes.

So Oh, really? I tricked him into starting early, but it wasn’t until he, you know, got outta college, went to Georgia Tech and, you know, uh, financial. And management. And he said to me, I’d like to take a crack at the business. So it wasn’t preordained. And I just knew, I, I was so honored that he, he wanted to do that.

That’s awesome. That’s how that happened. 

Coach Fergie: And so my knowledge, nugget of the week with coaching that I dropped. Pressure. Right. There comes expectations when she handed that off to you, right? Yeah. Making that transitioning role when, you know, she’s a legend in this stuff. Right? So like how did you handle that pressure of those expectations to make sure, one, you don’t wanna let your mom down, you know, at all.

I mean, you wanted it, you got it, and you had the [00:21:00] capacity to do it, right? So like how did you handle that pressure that kinda came along with it? 

Jon Nierman: Well, I, I started small. I, I, when I first came on, I, I started as a sales rep. I, I was in the sales department. With our business. We go to a lot of trade shows and, and dental conferences.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. So that’s where I started. And I, I traveled probably twice a month, um, to different dental shows and I got to meet all, all these different dentists and it, it took me, you know, I, I would, I did that for two years straight where I was traveling every week, every other week, and, um, kind of getting my chops down with, with selling, with business networking.

And that’s where I started. Right. And then from there, then I, I took on the continuing education department and we started growing that. And so it, it was a gradual thing. It wasn’t like I just came in and was over. So when you say continued 

Coach Fergie: education, are you talking about for the dentists themselves? Yes.

You guys offer like accredited courses for them to [00:22:00] level up their, I mean, one to stay legal, but to to level up their, that side of the business as well? 

Jon Nierman: Yeah, exactly. Okay. Yeah. We train them on how to implement the sleep apnea treatment. We work with the dental team members. Sure. The hygienists, the assistants on how to screen.

How to do the medical billing and we do all sorts of courses. Um, and we do a lot of them here in South Florida too. 

Coach Fergie: Right. So the, they went kind of from sales rep trade shows, and then when would you kinda really, how long have you been kind of the. You know, the kind of the reigns where Rose, she’s still involved.

’cause you know, rose is a kava buddy too, you know, and like she, she’s still there and involved. But like, when was it that you really kind of, you know, became the guy? 

Jon Nierman: I think in 2018 I became the vice president. Um, but that role was, I, I got tricked into that, was that felt like the president. Right. And, uh, and then I think about two years later, yeah, about 2020, [00:23:00] then I, I became the president.

Right. Um, so it’s been about five years since, uh, officially I’ve been the president. Gotcha. And you’re holding the dockey? What’s that? What’s that about? Yeah, so our motto is Get your ducks in a row. Okay. And our whole philosophy is, is it’s. All about systems. Okay? Systems are what’s gonna help you implement, um, for the dentist.

It’s gonna help you implement medical billing and, and sleep apnea. Um, but for any business, and that’s what we found, the more that we were able to, um, really implement things as a system, sure. The more efficient that we, we became. So, uh, get your ducks in a row. It’s, it’s all about the systems that we help the dentist set out.

That’s 

Coach Fergie: amazing. That that’s great. And there the whole. Uh, metaphorical side to it is there too. It’s, well, it’s awesome. So you, you do talk about blending strategy with heart, which, you know, I’ve, I’ve read about it. I’ve, you’ve, we’ve actually kind of talked about it. Can you share a time when leading with the heart versus the transactional brain really kind of made a difference in the growth of the company?[00:24:00] 

Jon Nierman: Yeah, so I would say. And actually I take a lot of, of this from, from Rose too. I always say that she, she has the most incredible gut feeling. 

Coach Fergie: Intuition, right? 

Jon Nierman: Intuition, yeah. That I’ve ever seen. And we’ll, we’ll sometimes, um, kind of debate about a decision to make and she’ll be like, I just, I have this gut feeling about it, trust me.

And then. Turns out she’s right. Like every time, and I’m like, ah, how, how did she do that? 

Coach Fergie: Right. 

Jon Nierman: You know? Um, and so I, I, I do think there’s definitely something to that, and I’ve experienced it myself for sure. I, I think, um, there’s times where we’ve had team members that o on paper, there’s, there’s something going on.

Um, they. They were almost let go. Mm. And there was a a time where I said, let’s, let’s hold off, let’s give [00:25:00] them another chance. Because I really feel like there’s, there’s some big potential here. There’s just something off. Right. And we need to just, we need to change some things for them so that they can really thrive.

Right. And I, I had this gut feeling about it. Um, and it turns out that in, in that case, that person. We were able to find the right role for them, and they became, you know, one of our best sales people. You 

Coach Fergie: know that they were right for the company. You just had to find that place for them. Right? Yeah. Love it.

So, kind of as we move towards the end here, legacy, right? You never know the, the, you know. You know, Josie’s in here kind of waddling around doing some video for us and stuff like that. She might be carrying the legacy of near and pm Right? Sure. So, you know, how do you think about legacy John? Like both for your company and yourself?

Jon Nierman: Yeah. Uh, I mean, I, I feel like I live live that every day, right? And that’s my why. That’s my why with the business is, is legacy. [00:26:00] Because I grew up watching my mom build the business. At the time, I didn’t really understand what she was doing. Yeah. But I saw how hard she was working Sure. Every day and, and what it took and the sacrifices it, it took.

And then, uh, you know, I, I hear that in the industry, how she was Right. Practically famous. And, um, so I knew it was something big. And as I got older and I understood. What was going on. Um, I, I was that I became so passionate about that and I wanted to, to help carry that on because it was such a, a cool story of how she started, which I can’t wait to bring her around.

I’m gonna, I’m 

Coach Fergie: definitely gonna reschedule that. 

Jon Nierman: So, yeah. You know, so that’s, I, that’s my why, so I love it. I think it’s very important. 

Coach Fergie: So, one word question on this or one word answer. So there’s a little dash, I wanna know your dash, your, your dashes, the, your little. The line between [00:27:00] your incarnation date and your expiration date, your life date, and death date.

I wanna know in one word how you wanna be remembered, 

Jon Nierman: authentic. Love it. 

Coach Fergie: And you 

Jon Nierman: are. So how can we find you guys? Well, you can find us on niman pm.com and 

Coach Fergie: it’s N-I-E-R-M-A-N-P-M, again, N-I-E-R-M-A-N pm.com. 

Jon Nierman: Yeah. And we’re on social media, John dot neman on Instagram or neman PM on Instagram. We’re on Facebook.

The 

Coach Fergie: dentist can probably find you on LinkedIn pretty much now too in LinkedIn. Yes, 

Jon Nierman: we’re big on LinkedIn. Yeah. 

Coach Fergie: So dental companies out there that are looking to level up your businesses. Uh, add the dental sleep medicine, even some medical billing. Get over, uh, to there else. Call me five six one four four zero three eight three zero five six one four four zero three eight three zero and I will put you in touch with a warm introduction.Thank you so much for coming on guys. Thank you so much to Brian Mudd, my awesome producer to WJNO, and just go have yourself a great weekend. Let’s level [00:28:00] up.